Problem Based Learning

[andrewbaillie]

Can someone please give me an example of how they use problem based learning to teach medicine please. I have a fair idea of what its about but i would like to know more about it.

If someone could fill the gaps then I'd be very grateful.

[relliott]

At glasgow university the entire course is formed around PBL. PBL sessions happen twice a week. In 1st year they are on mondays and thursdays. You are allocated to a group of about 10 people (I've heard this year due to staff shortage the groups are 14) and you get a facilitator who is NOT a tutor, but more of a guide to keep you on track. Your group will change every 10 weeks or so.

There is a system called The Glasgow Steps which you will follow every session. It goes something like this (using scenario one in block one as an example)

1. read through the scenario and define any words you are unsure of using a dictionary:

"In the A&E department, Tony, a 16 year old schoolboy has just arrived in an Ambulance and is being examined by the Nurse in the reception area. He has been in an accident where he got knocked off his bike by a speeding motorist. He is sore all over and he has abrasions on both knees and elbows which should heal once they have been cleaned. There is a cut on his hand that looks quite big and it will probably need stitches. Tony has never had stiches and asks what they are and if he will have a scar"

2. Identify the main issues to be discussed:

Skin
Abrasions and other wounds
healing of skin
scar formation
cleaning wounds
wound closure (i.e. stitches etc.)

3. Brainstorm

Basically in the brainstorm everyone pitches in what they know about the amin issues that have been identified. If you start going wildly off track the facilitator will pull you back in, but you have pretty much a free rein. Generate hypothesises (is that how you spell that?) about things you don't know as a guess is better than nothing

4. Generate questions

Basically whatever you discussed in the brainstorm which still has huge gaps in the explanation or there could be more you don't know about should be covered by questions. I've lost my objectives for block one, but my group's questions were:

What is the structure and function of skin?
Define and compare different types of skin wounds
How does the skin regenerate?
Why and how are scars formed?
How are wounds treated, including cleaning and closure?

5. Discuss resources

Commonly missed out step, but you should decide between you where to find this information

Now go away and research

6. Come back a few days later and discuss your answers to the questions. Ask your fellow students questions on the bits you were unsure about and be prepared to back up what you say.


The labs and lecturs during the week are usually geared towards what you are doing in PBL so go to them all to find out how much depth you need to know


Hopw this wa a help

[nicolacurrie]

see Elliott. he gave jojo and I a note on Glasgow PBL the other day.

stay sweet

nic x :p

[elliottsimpson]

I still have my doubts about this Tony fella. He may think he got knocked off by a hit and run merchant, but were there any witnesses? What is he'd had a fit? The unobserved epileptic fit is a tricky thing to diagnose - and watch those apparently superficial abrasions - there's the risk of necrotising fasciitis - hmmm - this could get complicated. Just as well they don't have biochemists dragging red herrings through the group sessions.

[relliott]

trust me, there are plenty of red herrings to be found along the way!! Just wait til everyone meets The Johnstones in block 3, the family from "Castlehill" with the stressed mother, the pregnant daughter, the druggy son, demented granny, daddy with CHD and the uncle who... well I won't give it all away. There are plenty of chances to find issues that aren't even there and waste your time researching them. I know all about placebos and the pacebo effect now, and I don't even need to know that. AAAAAARGH!

[Adam]

was any1 at the glasgow uni open day? i was there, and they gave us a chance to try it with a guy fallling off a ladder.

adam

[jojo]

Okay i was at that open day and that never happened for me!!!!

What time did you go to the talks at??Cos i went to the twelve oclock one then had to leave at 12.40 to catch my bus so missed most of the talk since it was running 30 mins late!!!!

joanna xx

[Adam]

no- it wasnt the open day open day. IOt was a really good, schooper dooper schpeschial medical open day with an overnight stay in baird hals and a ceilidh (OK, i cant spell it, but i gave it my best shot).
At the aberdeen open day we got to try keyhole surgery, putting in a thingymujig. whassit, its like a needle, with a plastic bit, but u take out the needle and leave the plastc bit in the vein. anyway- that, and stitching on some foam slit open with red pen inside the cut.
I missed the dundee one, but there was another meeting 4 those of us who couldnt make the first one.
Edinburgh, i just went to the plain normal open day.

Adam

[jojo]

Never made any of the others other than Glasgow and Edinburgh!!!Edinburghs was so funny cos me n my friend got lost so HAD to spend half the day in the Disney Store!!!

Jo xx

[hugbug3000]

I'm slightly doubtful about this HAVING to spend the day in the Disney store ------------ what about Warner Bros. Are they not good enough for you????

Has anyone else seen the Golden snitch you can buy in there??
I SO want one

[elliottsimpson]

Just to bring this thread slightly nearer to it's original subject heading, there's some useful (I hope) info at http://www.hss.coventry.ac.uk/pbl/

CU

Elliott

;)

[Louise McFadden]

Hi, all the help on PBL was really interesting. Could any students at Glasgow tell me how they introduce it and give any views on what its like to study there?

Love Louise
xxx
:rolleyes:

[relliott]

first coupla seesions are basic crash course in PBL - practically no substance to the reading, but good to learn how to do it

you get better with practice

gotta go now thoug, I'm in a rush.

[crumpet]

did adam mean a venflow? those needle-thing-a-mes r pretty cool tho :D
k'n'c
kdx

[Adam]

OK- peeps from glasgow can u please dispell rumours- I have heard that as of next year, Glasgow will be cuttig dramatically their PBL and increasingf their lectures so its more lie aberdeen and dundee. Is this true??

It was dr. singh that told me, so m inclined to believe him!

adam

[Adam]

K- I think ull find the correct medical term for this is: "thingymujig"


OK, b4 I forget, a name flashed into my head (cant guarantee the spelling). cannula- if thtas not the thingymujig then im sorry, but i think it is.

adam

[DScollon]

The cannula is the name of the little tube, yes. Venflon was the trade name for the most common type used a few years ago and they have come to be known as venflons (a bit like the hoover).

[crumpet]

hey adam, go team us!!!!!!!!!! woohoo we kinda got there in the end! thanks 4 the help derek:D
rite bak 2 bed soon - got a cold - poor wee me :(
k'n'c
kdx

[relliott]

Just on the PBL thing

No, Glasgow is not cutting back on PBL, unless they're doing it in secret. I'm on the Faulty Committee and these sort of things have to go through the student level too

However, this may have stemmed from the new idea that has been suggested that each block is started with an introductory seession of lectures to geve the jist of the main theme. We had one such session this year, but it by no means replaces PBL

This is not the case yet, but it may be added in along with PBL

You only get about 2 lectures a week anyway. I had none last week. A couple of extra lectures is not going to hurt you. trust me, I'm gonna be a doctor

[Adam]

oh no- its the opposite, Id much rather we had some more lectyres and less PBL. I dont think id remmeber it as well if its all PBL, I think one of my strengths is just writing it down, and remembering it as i write it. I dont know till im there though, so we'll c!!

adam

[relliott]

trust me. I'll show you my notes for PBL. You will write like you never have before......

[andrewbaillie]

Hey Ruth, cant they get someone to fix the 'Faulty Committee' at Glasgow.

:lol :lol :lol

[elliottsimpson]

Well spotted, Andrew.

Was that ever a Freudian slip!

[relliott]

that pretty much sums that one up.....

:p

but seriously, they do talk about stuff that affects everyone on the course and PBL is altered ever so slightly from year to year by the input from students and staff, which seems to start panic waves that say "they're changing the whole PBL course" when they might just be changing one or two scenarios

[Damien]

We only do a kind of PBL session for about one hour every two weeks. We get some problems usually a clinical one like, for example, after we have done all our nervous system/pharmacology lectures we would get one session to apply our knowledge to or, as another example, after doing respiratory and cardiovascular systems we would get a problem with three patients one healthy, the other two with two different types of respiratory problems.

Is this similar to the way you do it in Glasgow Ruth except that you go away and study the theory after getting the problem and come back with an answer?

I'm still not entirely sure what PBL is like. How many hours a day is it you go for?

Maybe we could get some FAQ's written up for people.

Damien :evil

I looked up 'thingymujig' in the dictionary - some thing that one does not know the name of/cannot be bothered saying the name of that does something :lol

[elliottsimpson]

It's a bit like the definition of a "synonym" as being "a word you use when you can't spell the other one". (Though how you cope if you can't spell synonym, I'm not sure!)

[relliott]

We get two 2 hour sessions of PBL a week
in between we have lectures and labs that complement the scenarios we're looking at

this week we have a hypertensive little old lady who almost faints when she gets up out of her chair after a consultation

our lectures and labs are all about automic control of blood pressure, local hormonal control, pharmacology related to blood pressure and blood flow in general

so instead of learning all the stuff first and then applying it, we learn it as we apply it, if you get my drift.

it is by no means the slack option that some people perceive it as. I have spent around 15 hours in lectures labs and the library so far just doing this one PBL. We are occupied from 9 til 5, just not in a structured timetable sorta way. It works for me, but you do feel a little insecure at times with the lack of guidance that other courses have (ie we had a lecture on it so we have to learn it - with us most of what we have to learn we learn ourselves and get assisstance from lectures, but they do not give us everything we need to know)

dunno if any of that helps at all

[arlene1988]

PBL- are you given something to look up and find what you can about a particular subject or does someone give you something to look into?
Arlene

At glasgow university the entire course is formed around PBL. PBL sessions happen twice a week. In 1st year they are on mondays and thursdays. You are allocated to a group of about 10 people (I've heard this year due to staff shortage the groups are 14) and you get a facilitator who is NOT a tutor, but more of a guide to keep you on track. Your group will change every 10 weeks or so.

There is a system called The Glasgow Steps which you will follow every session. It goes something like this (using scenario one in block one as an example)

1. read through the scenario and define any words you are unsure of using a dictionary:

"In the A&E department, Tony, a 16 year old schoolboy has just arrived in an Ambulance and is being examined by the Nurse in the reception area. He has been in an accident where he got knocked off his bike by a speeding motorist. He is sore all over and he has abrasions on both knees and elbows which should heal once they have been cleaned. There is a cut on his hand that looks quite big and it will probably need stitches. Tony has never had stiches and asks what they are and if he will have a scar"

2. Identify the main issues to be discussed:

Skin
Abrasions and other wounds
healing of skin
scar formation
cleaning wounds
wound closure (i.e. stitches etc.)

3. Brainstorm

Basically in the brainstorm everyone pitches in what they know about the amin issues that have been identified. If you start going wildly off track the facilitator will pull you back in, but you have pretty much a free rein. Generate hypothesises (is that how you spell that?) about things you don't know as a guess is better than nothing

4. Generate questions

Basically whatever you discussed in the brainstorm which still has huge gaps in the explanation or there could be more you don't know about should be covered by questions. I've lost my objectives for block one, but my group's questions were:

What is the structure and function of skin?
Define and compare different types of skin wounds
How does the skin regenerate?
Why and how are scars formed?
How are wounds treated, including cleaning and closure?

5. Discuss resources

Commonly missed out step, but you should decide between you where to find this information

Now go away and research

6. Come back a few days later and discuss your answers to the questions. Ask your fellow students questions on the bits you were unsure about and be prepared to back up what you say.


The labs and lecturs during the week are usually geared towards what you are doing in PBL so go to them all to find out how much depth you need to know


Hopw this wa a help

[Stephen]

a ceilidh (OK, i cant spell it, but i gave it my best shot).
Adam

i think that's right actually.

[Pud]

i think that's right actually.
nice of you to tell him - you're only two and a half years late :)

[elliottsimpson]

nice of you to tell him - you're only two and a half years late :)
so, is it a case of "better late than never" OR "better never late"?

[arlene1988]

hey- thanks elliott, better late than never i think. I wansn't paricularly answering the question on what PBL actually is, I was trying to get information off of all of you people. was curious. I have been looking into PBL and getting to know what it is =now in better detail.

Arlene

so, is it a case of "better late than never" OR "better never late"?

[Stephen]

oh well. i just noticed it was started ages and ages ago, i only read it cos there was a new post from someone.

at least he knows now.

[arlene1988]

yeah. I didn't actually realise date.

Arlene ;)

[Stephen]

ahh, so it's all your fault then is it?! :p

better late than never i'd say.

[elliottsimpson]

better late than never i'd say.did you hear they're planning to put a clock on the Leaning Tower of Pisa? No point of having the inclination if you don't have the time!

:lol :lol :lol

[Hayley]

PBL- are you given something to look up and find what you can about a particular subject or does someone give you something to look into?
Arlene



Not quite sure how they do it at the other unis but at Glasgow we're given a scenario (see Ruth's example) and the group formulates a number of questions based on issues from the scenario. The facilitators make sure that our questions cover the objectives.

So basically you're given a subject and will be looking into certain aspects of it (although technically you can find out as much as you like!).

Hope this helps.

Hayley :chute:

[kylegibson_2000]

What do the students at Glasgow think of the amount of PBL they are allocated?

One of the reasons I was put off from accepting Glasgow as I was told the learning is mainly PBL.

[Adam Gilmour]

Learning is mainly PBL.

1st year the PBLs are ok, (hehe well wait till you guys start block 5 a week 2mo ;) )

2nd Year PBLs are about 3 times the size of a block 5 PBL and depending on how you do them can take a fair amount of time to answer all the questions.

[andrewbaillie]

Whatever you do dont make the mistake of thinkin the FRS's arent important. Yeh, the majority of them are a bit dodgy and immensly boring, but they do ask questions on them in the exam. Hence the reason why adam is showing a sudden interest in trying to fill in the massive gaps in his FRS notes, considering hes hardly been to any of them. :evil :grlaugh:

[Dehydrated Water]

1st year the PBLs are ok, (hehe well wait till you guys start block 5 a week 2mo ;) )
I picked up the FRS notes, and then put them straight in my bag.....they were scaring me!

[relliott]

ah, how sweetly i remember block 5...............

PBL learning only works for people who can cope with insecurity and can manage their own time efficiently. You really feel like you are operating without a safety net for 1st and 2nd year as the old "am i learning enough?" keeps popping up (especially when you read said block 5 FRS notes). Those who require to be directed to exact locations of information or prefer to be coached more closely in what to focus on will probably not like PBL.

I like Glasgow's course as it suits the way i learn - i work when i feel like working, I take a break when i dont. There are very few solid deadlines for essays, tests and the like and most of the learning is more hands on and direct application of knowledge than in other schools. People mock the socio-psycho-babble that they want us to understand, but the further on you go through the course the more you realise that you need to have a basic grasp on these not so "scientific" aspects of medicine to survive it.

On the other hand though.... I dont think there is enough direction in what the primary learning objectives are. The target questions are given out at the end of blocks when you are already starting up a new block and dont have time to go back to thtose questions that you feel you either a) didnt think of or b) didnt do exactly as you were meant to. Sure, by the end of the year with a bit of elbow grease you'll get there, but it'd make for a much less stressful time if it wasnt so last minute. I dont think i know anyone who started third year WITHOUT a copy of the facilitator's notes just so they'd get the right questions out of the scenario.

Essentially, when picking a course i'd go with your gut feeling. I like Glasgow, it suits me. It wont suit everyone (indeed i know a few who dropped out and are now 3rd years in other med schools) so make sure you hear about it from both sides of the divide.

PBL's a bit like marmite - you'll either love it or hate it

[Stephen]

have we to go in and get them now or can we wait til tuesday? did i miss it? oh crap.

[Stephen]

btw - i mean the block 5 FRS notes, i didn't realise that ruth had posted and just replied to Vanessa.

[Dehydrated Water]

have we to go in and get them now or can we wait til tuesday? did i miss it? oh crap.
Their in the office, I think you can pick them up whenever you like, I would leave them there for as long as possible, enjoy the rest of your holidays

[Stephen]

Cool. i think i'll take your advice and not go in :D

Stephen

[relliott]

just be prepared for the sudden change in tempo :) it kinds goes from a nice lil andante to a full grown molto allegro :)

[Stephen]

yeah. from what i hear it's best to get that wee break before block 5. sounds kinda hellish

[Dehydrated Water]

just be prepared for the sudden change in tempo :) it kinds goes from a nice lil andante to a full grown molto allegro :)
musical terms!!! :up:



ps Happy Easter all!!!!

[relliott]

just before everyone goes into too much of a panic, it's just that block 5 is very science based and has a lot of biochemistry that you may not be familiar with or dont remember well from school biology and so it takes a bit to get up to speed. Once you are up to speed on the concepts (and discover "Crash Course Metabolism and Nutrition) you'll be fine. Coming straight out the much less scientific blocks 4 and 5 into it is a bit of a jolt

[dMcgeadie]

Lol, my work experience supervisor, Derek Sellar: Chief something of the IBLS at Glasgow Uni. had a somewhat cruder name for PBL, FOFO, *bleep* off and find out :D

[relliott]

I have heard that the ex-dean made the same remark in a dinner speech...... crudely put PBL is along the lines of FOFO, but you get really good at doing it :)